Pai Gow Poker House Odds
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Jan 23, 2019 Beating Pai Gow Poker. The house uses a house-way to set each hand, and a player can stay almost even with the house by playing in a similar manner. In fact, you can ask the dealer to help you set your hand. The house always starts with the idea that it does not want to lose. After all, Mississippi Stud Poker is a relatively new addition to casino floors. Like its cousins, Caribbean Stud Poker, Let It Ride, Pai Gow Poker, and Three Card Poker, it’s a house-banked game inspired by traditional poker games. The rules of Fortune Pai Gow Poker will be familiar to those of you who like to play Pai Gow Poker online or at land-based casinos. Like the original game, Fortune Pai Gow Poker uses a 52-card deck and a joker. It’s a battle between you and the house to create two winning poker hands out of seven cards. The house advantage in Pai Gow Poker depends on partially on your skill setting hands but more on how much of the action you bank. I plan to publish some pai gow poker strategy in January, 2014. Until then, the following tables show the probability of each possible outcome and the expected value four ways — whether using the house way. How to Play Pai Gow Poker. Pai Gow Poker uses a standard deck of 52 cards plus one joker. A maximum of six players sit around the table along with the dealer. The object of the game is quite simple: to beat the banker. The banker can be the dealer, another player at the table, or a player-dealer “team.”.
eddiekim52
I was in Las Vegas earlier this week and I was playing Pai Gow Poker at Planet Hollywood. I was banking and was dealt an ace-high: AQJ9xxx and I don't remember the bottom three cards.
I tried to set Q9 in the low hand and AJ in the high hand. (At the time I thought that was optimal strategy, I realize now I'm wrong. But that's neither here or there.)
The dealer told me I was 'fouling' my hand and demanded that I play QJ in the low hand. I appealed to the pit boss and the pit boss actually backed the dealer's claim. I was still adamant that I had the right to play Q9 so the pit boss made a phone call. After the phone call, they still told me I was required to play the house way.
Honestly, I was ready to quit fighting it because I was slowing down the game for other people at the table for what was ultimately not a lot of money. But a witness who saw the whole thing go down insisted that I fight it to the end. The game was delayed for a total of about 15 minutes and the casino supervisor was finally called over. Finally, I got the correct ruling: I have the right to play Q9 because it's my money. The dealer even had the audacity to shake her head 'no' at the casino supervisor.
The dealer flips over her hand and ultimately ends up with a small pair on the bottom and Q9 copy on top. She graded it as a house win and demanded that the bank (me) pay. Again, the casino supervisor had to tell the dealer she was wrong. The dealer had no idea that the bank wins the copies, not the house!
After the hand was over, I had a very lengthy discussion with the casino supervisor. The casino supervisor flat out told me, 'This casino isn't like other casinos. We don't cater to the clientele that likes to bank so our dealers don't know the rules when it comes to player banking.'
The question I have is NOT, 'is the dealer in the wrong here?' I already know the answer to this question, the dealer was unequivocally wrong.
Rather, the question that I have for you guys is, 'Am I being too unreasonable that I'm still fuming over this incident two days later?'
EDIT: It's not so much whether or not I was forced to play house way. My anger comes from these three points mainly...
1. The dealer didn't know what 'foul' meant. According to her, every way that isn't house way is a foul.
2. The dealer didn't know that the bank wins the copies, not the house.
3. The casino supervisor told me that it wasn't dealer's fault. It was my fault because I confused the dealer by electing to bank. Even though the casino allows banking. The casino supervisor told me that she's been in the industry for 17 years and she has never seen a no pair hand played with anything other than 2nd & 3rd on top.
Thanks guys!
I tried to set Q9 in the low hand and AJ in the high hand. (At the time I thought that was optimal strategy, I realize now I'm wrong. But that's neither here or there.)
The dealer told me I was 'fouling' my hand and demanded that I play QJ in the low hand. I appealed to the pit boss and the pit boss actually backed the dealer's claim. I was still adamant that I had the right to play Q9 so the pit boss made a phone call. After the phone call, they still told me I was required to play the house way.
Honestly, I was ready to quit fighting it because I was slowing down the game for other people at the table for what was ultimately not a lot of money. But a witness who saw the whole thing go down insisted that I fight it to the end. The game was delayed for a total of about 15 minutes and the casino supervisor was finally called over. Finally, I got the correct ruling: I have the right to play Q9 because it's my money. The dealer even had the audacity to shake her head 'no' at the casino supervisor.
The dealer flips over her hand and ultimately ends up with a small pair on the bottom and Q9 copy on top. She graded it as a house win and demanded that the bank (me) pay. Again, the casino supervisor had to tell the dealer she was wrong. The dealer had no idea that the bank wins the copies, not the house!
After the hand was over, I had a very lengthy discussion with the casino supervisor. The casino supervisor flat out told me, 'This casino isn't like other casinos. We don't cater to the clientele that likes to bank so our dealers don't know the rules when it comes to player banking.'
The question I have is NOT, 'is the dealer in the wrong here?' I already know the answer to this question, the dealer was unequivocally wrong.
Rather, the question that I have for you guys is, 'Am I being too unreasonable that I'm still fuming over this incident two days later?'
EDIT: It's not so much whether or not I was forced to play house way. My anger comes from these three points mainly...
1. The dealer didn't know what 'foul' meant. According to her, every way that isn't house way is a foul.
2. The dealer didn't know that the bank wins the copies, not the house.
3. The casino supervisor told me that it wasn't dealer's fault. It was my fault because I confused the dealer by electing to bank. Even though the casino allows banking. The casino supervisor told me that she's been in the industry for 17 years and she has never seen a no pair hand played with anything other than 2nd & 3rd on top.
Thanks guys!
sabre
I thought is was common to require use of the house way when a player banks.
And yes, you're being very unreasonable.
And yes, you're being very unreasonable.
Wizard
Administrator
First let me say that in pai gow (tiles) whether banking or not you may play your tiles however you wish. I would imagine this is the case in pai gow poker as well.Administrator
Regarding your situation, I think you have the right to be a little mad but it sounds like you're making too big a deal over it. Yes, you should have been allowed to play however you wish without fouling your hand. However, if the casino wishes to have a rule that banking players must play the house way, just let them. I know optimal strategy is a little better but if you're trying to get the best odds possible, there are probably better games to play.
What I find ironic is that you're mad that the casino prevented you from making an inferior play. Maybe a bad comparison, but kind of like being denied a double down in blackjack on a blackjack, which I've heard of happening.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
eddiekim52
Quite the contrary: I've never heard of a single instance where the player bank must set it the house way. (So long as the player is assuming the full financial risk, instead of some co-banking shenanigans.)
The house way exists only to protect the house's money and to eliminate dealer skill from the game. Obviously, the dealer isn't playing with her own money so she'd rather give money away instead of taking money from the players. If the dealer had the option to do whatever she wanted, she'd deliberately set her hand wrong every time so she can pay the players.
I'm not an employee of Planet Hollywood. I don't even know what their house way is. Why should I have to learn their house way just to play at their casino?
Forcing the player to play the house way is the same as forcing the player to hit on 16 and stand on 17 in blackjack.
The house way exists only to protect the house's money and to eliminate dealer skill from the game. Obviously, the dealer isn't playing with her own money so she'd rather give money away instead of taking money from the players. If the dealer had the option to do whatever she wanted, she'd deliberately set her hand wrong every time so she can pay the players.
I'm not an employee of Planet Hollywood. I don't even know what their house way is. Why should I have to learn their house way just to play at their casino?
Forcing the player to play the house way is the same as forcing the player to hit on 16 and stand on 17 in blackjack.
Hunterhill
I don't think he's mad because the casino has certain rules.I think he's mad that the staff doesn't know their own rules.
This used to be a common problem with 3cp in it's first few years. You get paid the ante bonus even if you lose the hand (with a straight or better ) many times thr dealer the floor and even the pit boss didn't know this and it would end up turning into a long argument. I understand your frustration.
This used to be a common problem with 3cp in it's first few years. You get paid the ante bonus even if you lose the hand (with a straight or better ) many times thr dealer the floor and even the pit boss didn't know this and it would end up turning into a long argument. I understand your frustration.
eddiekim52
I appreciate the response.
What bothered me the most about this situation is that casino supervisor told me that the casino deliberately doesn't cater to players that typically like to bank. The casino supervisor conceded that their dealers don't know how to handle the game when the player banks. Then why allow that as an option?
I live in Chicago. The casinos in my area don't allow player banking, period. That's their rule. They've made it clear. And I'm fine with that.
What bothered me the most about this situation is that casino supervisor told me that the casino deliberately doesn't cater to players that typically like to bank. The casino supervisor conceded that their dealers don't know how to handle the game when the player banks. Then why allow that as an option?
I live in Chicago. The casinos in my area don't allow player banking, period. That's their rule. They've made it clear. And I'm fine with that.
terapined
My take is the banker, dealer or player, must play the house way.
Las Vegas News - November 2019 Las Vegas Advisor
For the player, there should be no difference between playing against a dealer banking, or a player banking.
When a player sits down to a pai gow game, they are playing against the house way regardless of who is banking.
The rules cannot change for a player in the middle of a game because a different player decides to bank the next round instead of the dealer.
The rule is you are playing against the house way.
'Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time' -Grateful Dead- 'Loser'
eddiekim52
Terapined,
I never thought about it that way. You bring up a good point and it certainly changes my opinion of what I said earlier (forcing the player to hit on 16).
I never thought about it that way. You bring up a good point and it certainly changes my opinion of what I said earlier (forcing the player to hit on 16).
beachbumbabs
Administrator
I play paigow and I bank.Administrator
I should note, the only rule about fouling a hand is that your five card hand must outrank your two card hand or the hand is fouled; the Wizard didn't say this, but I think it's implicit in the discussion.
Everywhere I've played, as bank or as player I'm allowed to set the hand within that parameter, any way I wish. A lot of times, when a player banks, people will set their hand in a way that is more likely to provide a push (you see this more often on a player who's not banking). You're absolutely NOT responsible or required to set a hand the way the house does, or even know the house way.
I hate being in your position, eddie, where you're having to fight for the right rules, and when I've had to do it, I've stayed spooled up about it for several days, so I understand your agitation. I'm glad you persisted, but it's very hard to be put in a position to have to do so. Despite that, the game should be a little better at PH for your having done so. Sounds like the players were getting screwed a little if both the dealer and first PB didn't understand the bank or the game.
You will find IMO the best Vegas game at the Mirage, followed closely by Harrah's, where they deal it 24/7 and most know their job. Harrah's gets 2nd only because they make you bet 2x minimum to play 2 hands. Gold Coast is very popular w/PGP players and has many tables, but they have the Dragon rather than allowing 2 hands, so I don't enjoy playing there, but many others do.
I don't know what PH is good for, but there's better PGP just across the street/down the street, so you might try those next time.If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
ahiromu
Protecting your ace is an East coast thing, I learned it in AC and I tend to get funny looks when in Vegas (I don't do it as often anymore).I have been allowed to set my hand however I wanted to at PH while banking, however, I rarely got the chance because the tables tend to be crowded (I only bank when playing alone and prefer a slow game). I am surprised you found such an aggressive dealer at PH. From my experience, they seem to hire on dealer outgoingness/friendliness.
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